DRAFT
Board of Zoning Appeals Meeting Minutes
October 24th, 2002 -
Special Meeting
DRAFT
CALL
TO ORDER:
Pat Cain, Acting Chairman
ROLL
CALL:
Pat Cain, Cherry Linder,
James Rinehart, and Joe Thompson were present. Robert Bender was absent.
Township Attorney, Doug Miller was also present.
Continued Case ………
CASE:
2002-0601 8350 & 8356 Snider Road, 20.676, Conditional Use,
Deerfield Township Zoning
Resolution, Section 10.04, Cincinnati Hills Ball Fields
Doug Miller said that he had
two points he wanted to make before the meeting
started. Doug Miller wanted
to let people know that this use, (school athletic
fields), is a permitted
conditional use under residential zoning. Since the impact
on the proposal might be
more than the regular residential building of a house,
they can put conditions on
that use. Mr. Miller said this board may put conditions
on this use to help reduce
the impact on the residents. He said this is not a zone
change.
Doug said that this meeting
is a continuation from October 10th. At the
September 12th
meeting the board closed the public testimony. Tonight since
there have been changes to
the plan, public testimony will be permitted. Doug
again reminded that this
is not a zone change.
Pat Cain swore in those
persons who were planning to give testimony. Pat
asked Jenny Kaage to give
the Staff Findings of Fact report and conditions.
Doug Miller said Jenny
should go over the most recent plan. Tim Hershner said
the lighting plan is
displayed. The game field and parking lot lights are shown.
Pat Cain asked if the
application had changed. Tim said a higher intensity is
shown now from what they had
before.
Staff Findings of Fact
Jenny Kaage, went
over the Staff recommended 15 conditions. She said #1 is a
standard requirement for
storm drainage management. She said #2 condition
on the ingress, egress, and
internal circulation of traffic says that she should
get recommendations and
approval from Dan Corey of the Warren County
Engineers’ Office. Jenny
said the engineers have reviewed the site but have not
finished reviewing the
traffic impact study. She said they will get back with her
after October 28th.
The memo from Dan Corey, of the Warren County Engineers
Office said they prefer two
access points to relieve congestion issues after
games and asked that the
center line of the two driveways are 300 feet apart.
Regarding the alignment of
the proposed main driveway with the Natorp’s
driveway, this is the best
location with regard to site distance. On #3 she has
received comments from the
DTFR and they want to review the location of
hydrants. Jenny went over
the other conditions and on #13 the use has
increased from the last
meeting.
#13.
The use of the recreation fields shall be limited to athletic practice
girls and boys teams on
weekdays from Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM till
dusk and Saturdays 9:00 AM
until dusk. Additionally, games are permitted
during the same time with
reserve games commencing at no earlier than 4:00
PM and varsity games
commencing at 7:30 PM, each occurrence limited to a
maximum of three times per
week. Three singular days Cincinnati Hills Christian
Academy “special events”
shall be permitted every calendar year. Each special
event shall be limited to
the hours operating between 10:00 AM to 9:00 PM
Monday through Friday or
10:00 AM to 9:00 PM on Saturday or Sunday. A
zoning permit approved by
the Zoning inspector shall be required confirming the
special event along with the
date and hours of operation of the event.
Jenny said #14 regarding
the maintenance building hasn’t changed since the last
meeting. #15 is the same
except for Phase 4 was added stating that when the
Natorp property develops the
privacy fence will be extended.
Jim Rinehart asked for a
description of the wooden fence. Tim said exhibit 2
shows the “board on board”,
double sided fence. Tim said they plan to make
sure there is not much
visibility, and they will make the boards in the fence
closer. Jim Rinehart asked
them to define “athletic” practice. Tim said CHCA is
concerned that by saying
which sports are included, in a few years they may
want to do La Crosse
practice or another sport. Tim said that they want people
to consider that there could
be other sports. Tim the original application they
listed athletic fields but
Tim said he had the impression the fields would be used
for just soccer and
football. This is to clarify that they would want the fields to be
used for the same use as any
other high school would use their fields. Jim
Rineharrt asked what if the
Warren County Engineers don’t allow something in
the ingress/egress plan.
Should we be discussing this without their approval?
Tim said the parking lot
will be more for attendance at games because CHCA will
bus the students there for
practice.
Proponents
Richard Paolo, Aronoff, Rosen & Hunt,
425 Walnut St., Cinti., OH
45202,
went over the #13 condition.
#13.
“The use of the recreation fields shall be limited to athletic practice
and
games
by Cincinnati
Hills Christian Academy High School girls and boys athletic
teams and those
individuals “affiliated” with CHCA teams on weekdays from
Monday through Friday from
3:00 PM till dusk and Saturdays 9:00 AM until dusk.
“Affiliated individuals”
shall mean teams of which at least one player or
coach is a parent of a CHCA
student, is a CHCA student, teacher, coach, or
the Cincinnati United
Premier Soccer Club.
STRIKE the
following:
Additionally, games are
permitted during the same time with reserve games
commencing at no earlier
than 4:00 PM and varsity games commencing at
7:30 PM, each occurrence
limited to a maximum of three times per week.
Three singular day
Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy “special events” shall be
permitted every calendar
year. Each special event shall be limited to the hours
operating between 10:00 AM
to 9:00 PM Monday through Friday or 10:00 AM to
9:00 PM on Saturday or
Sunday. A zoning permit approved by the Zoning
inspector shall be required
confirming the special event along with the date and
hours of operation of the
event.”
Mr. Paolo suggested changes
by adding or deleting the above bolded sections of
#13. Some of the
anticipated teams which need to practice do not exist at this
point but CHCA needs to plan
ahead, should the need arise. Mr. Amend will
expand on some of the
anticipated use. Mr. Paolo said only teams which are
associated with CHCA will be
using these fields. Cherry Linder asked who the
Cincinnati United Premier
Soccer Club is.
Greg Amend, 7365 Milikin
Road, Liberty Township, explained this soccer club
which is a select team.
They play Spring soccer. He said in our initial discussion
we gave the impression the
fields would be used only in the Fall but we would
need to use the fields in
the Spring, also.
Mr. Amend said they are
trying to show the “worse case” scenario. Mr. Amend
said that the games (not
practice) would be on the varsity soccer field. In s
Spring there would be 1 or 2
teams but in the fall there would be 4 teams. Pat
Cain asked Mr. Amend about
the line in #13 concerning outsiders using the field.
“Affiliated individuals”
shall mean teams of which at least one player or
coach is a parent of a CHCA
student, is a CHCA student, teacher, coach, or
the Cincinnati United
Premier Soccer Club.
Mr. Cain and
Mr. Amend came to
the conclusion that the
above should be worded differently to prevent outsiders
from using the fields. They
decided to have it read “at least one coach is a
parent of a CHCA student, is
a CHCA student, teacher or coach or the
Cincinnati United Premier
Soccer Club.”
Cherry Linder was concerned that
the fields will be busy 7
days a week. She was concerned that the Cincinnati
Soccer Club will make it
busier.
Jim Rinehart asked if these
games are governed by the State of Ohio. He was
told the state does regulate
the games. Mr. Rinehart asked if the state regulates
traffic at games. Jim
Rinehart said that football and soccer are the same. Mr.
Amend said the CHCA football
team draws several thousand fans. The soccer
games have never had that
kind of crowd. Mr. Paolo said when the traffic study
and recommendation is done,
CHCA will do what they ask. Doug Miller said that
they can ask for traffic
cops at the game if that would be needed. There was
discussion on the number of
home games. Pat Cain said he is concerned with
the statement that reads
“ and those individuals “affiliated” with CHCA
teams on weekdays from
Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM till dusk
and Saturdays 9:00 AM till
dusk.”
Mr. Cain said that is 6 days a week that any
teams can come in there.
Mr. Paolo said under State of Ohio rules you couldn’t
have any club use those
fields in the Fall. The Cincinnati United Soccer Club
could only use the fields in
the Spring.
Tim said any of the parents
of the soccer team could bring a team to use the field
with the word “affiliated”
in there. Pat said we should say coaches and Cincinnati
United Soccer. Doug Miller
said it should read “affiliated individuals shall mean
teams of which at least one
player or coach is a CHCA coach or Cincinnati
United Premier Soccer Club
coach.” Tim says it talks about 3:00 PM to dusk and
5:00 PM till dusk. Mr.
Amend said varsity games start at 7:00 PM.
Mr. Cain said the drawing
shows six 70 feet high lights. Tim said that is what
they have at their current
field. Mr. Paolo said currently they are proposing 6
lights. Jim Rinehart asked
why the fields must be lit. Mr. Amend said the football
field is crowned and they
don’t want to use that for soccer.
Richard Paolo said that
Condition #6 refers to a 10 foot strip of land which CHCA
could deed over to the
Simpson Creek Farms HOA. Tim said the township
should not get into this
private property issue. They would have to do that on
their own. Tim said the
township could suggest a minimum buffer.
Proponents
Mark Clark,
5187 Stone Trace Drive,
likes having
this green space. He said
CHCA met with the residents
and tried to work with the neighbors.
Ralph
Turner, 8324 Snider Road,
former owner of the property in question
said over the years the
children have used his property to play sports. He said
many developers were
interested in his property and he was thrilled when CHCA
wanted to buy the property.
Michael
Kramer, 5701 Stone Trace Drive,
said he is for the green space and
asked for the fence to go
all they way around the corner. Mr. Kramer said he
went to one of the meetings
with the HOA.
Jim
Kreinest, 8500 Snider Road,
agreed with Mr. Turner and said he would
rather have the school
property than more houses. He was concerned that the
lights may bother him.
Dan
Hickman, 8243 Lee Court,
had a question about the
fence and the property
line. He asked about the 10
feet of land that may be deeded to the property
owners.
Elaine
Elko, 8303 Cora Court,
agreed that this is a good
use of this land but she is worried about the conditions that have been
discussed. She was concerned about hours of operation for the maintenance
building. She doesn’t like the idea of activities on Saturday and Sunday. She
said this is a good use of the residential zoning but she wants limits on the
hours of usage.
John
Holzmacher, 5907 Stone Trace Drive,
was concerned with the fence. He was concerned about foot traffic going
through his yard. He said this project will be good for the neighborhood. He
was concerned with changes from the previous meeting.
Greg Amend,
said there will be a fence and trees.
Stacy Anderson, 5853 Stone
Trace Drive, likes the practice fields but at the
meetings she kept hearing
the worse case scenario. She doesn’t want people
from the fields running
around over her property.
Greg Campbell, 5893 Stone
Trace Drive,
was concerned about the 3 special
events. He asked if they
would be festivals like the Catholic schools have. Mr.
Amend came forward and said
they have a fall festival which consists of a middle
school event. The event is
currently being held immediately after school at the
school. He said he did not
know of any other special events but they were put in
the conditions for a “just
in case” scenario.
Sual Mathew, 5885 Stone
Trace Drive,
was concerned about the 10 feet of land
to be deeded to the HOA.
Pat Cain said if the home owner wants to do this on
their own that would be
fine. Mr. Mathew was concerned about traffic and
lighting.
Tim
Northcut, 5757 Stone Trace Drive,
said he is for this development but has
some concerns about the
landscaping plan. Jenny said she has an updated one.
He was asking for Norwegian
Pines instead of White Pines around the
maintenance facility and he
wants the trees to hide that green chain link fence which is around the
maintanence area. He said if trees are deeded to them, and trees die, who
replaces them. Doug Miller said the owner would have to pay for it.
Mr. Northcut was concerned
about lighting around the maintenance facility. Tim
Hershner said if there are
fixtures on the side of the building, they must be “down
directional.” Tim said he
likes to view the plans. Mr. Northcut said he is
concerned that the facility
will be used year round. He was concerned with #13
also because there is
increased usage since the first meeting.
Mr. Northcut said CHCA will
continue to grow and he is afraid they will move
some more of their
activities out to this site. He asked for specific rules such as, no football
stadium, no baseball stadium, no tennis facilities, no marching/pep band, no
Sunday activities.
Pat Cain said, #1)
There was much discussion on condition #13. #2) We can’t dictate how
they can use it in the next 20 years. We can dictate how they can use the
property now and make it so if they have changes, they would have to come back
to us to get permission to make those changes. Jim Rinehart said they can’t
just do anything they want to do with that field. Pat Cain discussed the
landscaping to buffer the view and asked about the height. Mr. Northcut said
CHCA suggested 6 foot high trees.
Dan
Hickman, 8243 Lee Court,
was concerned about the 10 feet of land for buffer. Doug Miller said the 10
foot of property belongs to CHCA. Richard Paolo said CHCA would prefer to deed
it to the HOA of Simpson Creek Farms rather than to have deeds to the individual
homeowners adjoining these fields. Mr. Hickman said not all of the homeowners
in this group are affected by the 10 feet buffer and may not want to pay for the
maintenance. Doug Miller says we don’t care who owns it just so it is
maintained. Mr. Hickman asked how the 10 feet will be maintained. Pat Cain
said this board doesn’t care who maintains it as long as it is maintained.
Greg Amend said with the
growth of the school they need these fields for sports such as La Crosse which
they don’t need at this time. Mr. Amend said that CHCA will maintain the fence
and the trees. He said you cannot spend 3-4 million dollars and let the
property sit. They will do everything they can to keep it nice. He said they
are trying to accommodate everyone.
Tim Hershner said Ken
Natorp resident on Irwin-Simpson Road called and left a message that he is for
the project and he thinks that is a good use of the property.
Opponents David Davis,
5906 Stone Trace Drive,
said he originally thought this was going
to be a soccer practice
field but now it has become something different. He was
worried about traffic and
noise problems. He said he collected 50 signatures in
opposition to this project.
He said he is strongly opposed to the project. He said
there is a problem. He is
worried about property values. He said he down
loaded the CHCA sports
schedule and there are 32 home games. He was
concerned that his property
values would be affected. He said the community
gets nothing from this
except for noise, traffic, and pollution.
Isabel
Davis, 5906 Stone Trace Drive,
said she is against the soccer stadium with 600 people. She said there is
nothing in it for her subdivision. She was concerned about noise, lights,
music, and 600 people. She said her “castle” has been violated. She said the
people there will be screaming and hollering. She said the fire trucks will not
be able to get through on Snider Road due to 600 people on the road. She said
things about the 600 people several times. She said her property values will
suffer. She said she has contacted the newspapers, radio stations, and TV
stations.
Kent
Hall, 5901 Stone Trace Drive,
said he attended all of the meetings concerning this project. He said CHCA did
a good job. He had two points as follows: 1) He doesn’t like the
location of the parking lot. He wants an access road to Socialville-Fosters
Road. 2) He is worried about drainage from the fields affecting the back
of his property.
Tom
Raga, 6325 Eagle Court,
referred to a letter he had sent to the board members. He said he is a
Montgomery Farms resident and his wife, Jean, is involved with the home-owners
association there. He said this is inconsistent with the surrounding
developments. He did not like the fence. He suggested mounding. He thinks
they should allow local residents to use the property. He said traffic
conditions there suggest the need for a right turn and left turn lane on Snider
Road. He said the board should not allow the field lights, and by not having
those lights the amount of activities there would be limited.
Chris
Hills, 7852 Hunt Club Drive,
president of the home-owners association of Hunter’s Green Subdivision, said he
would like to see them add turn lanes on Snider Road. He was concerned about
traffic and lighting.
Marsha
Sullivan, 3651 Stoneboat Court,
said she doesn’t live in
this neighborhood. She lives in the Landen area but she said she was concerned
about the traffic and the dangers involved. She said one of the conditions
should be that the Socialville-Fosters Road and Snider Road intersection be
realigned and improved. Pat Cain closed the public portion of the meeting.
Board Comments
Jim Rinehart said the
traffic situation bothers him and the lighting. He said he
likes green space but since
we are not requiring mounding here, that bothers
him. Joe Thompson said that
Warren County has plans to improve the intersection of Socialville-Fosters Road
and Snider Road. Joe said he would like to see a deceleration lane on Snider
Road. Joe said at the Kings games they
have 3 deputies for
traffic. Jim Rinehart said he didn’t want to see the traffic line up there like
it does at Landen Deerfield Park.
Cherry Linder said we
must rely on the county engineers for traffic studies. Cherry Linder asked Greg
Amend why the park will not be open to the public. Mr. Amend said there is a
major expense of insurance and the insurance company wants it fenced.
Cherry asked Mr. Amend
about mounding. Mr. Amend said the site is short on dirt. Hauling in tons of
soil is very expensive. Cherry asked him what they would do if neighbors went
in there. Mr. Amend said we can’t give them explicit permission to use the park
but if they use it we won’t report them. Greg Amend said they originally
planned for a split rail fence. The privacy fence costs $68,000. Mr. Amend
said the soil for mounding would cost many times that amount. The cost for
trucking the soil is where the high cost is.
Pat Cain said that this is
not a public park. This is a private park. To offer access to adjacent
neighbors is commendable.
Cherry Linder was concerned
about Condition #13. She said she doesn’t like the word “affiliated”. She said
she doesn’t like the Cincinnati United Premier Soccer Club. She said she is
worried about what could happen a few years down the road. She also was
concerned about the weekend events.
Pat Cain said he is worried
about traffic. He asked Jenny if there were a traffic study. Jenny said the
applicant paid for one but we don’t have the feedback from the county if they
agree with that or not.
Doug Miller said we should
go over the conditions and on November 14 at the next meeting we will know what
Warren County has to say about the traffic. He said it would be very simple to
add another condition at that time.
Pat Cain said he doesn’t
like 70 foot lights and what if we said “no lights.” Greg Amend said without
lights CHCA would have to concentrate the usage to the daylight hours. Having
lights would allow the schedule to be more spread out. Pat said one of the
residents who lives closest to the lights didn’t seem to be worried about them.
Doug the condition reads that they must not exceed .2 foot-candles on the
property line. Doug said that rule would make it impossible to comply. Mr.
Amend said the lighting plan has been done by a lighting expert.
Doug Miller asked if this
privacy is what was wanted by the HOA. Mr. Dan Hickman, of 8243 Lee Court said
they really wanted mounding. Cherry Linder said the HOA prefers the split rail
rather than the privacy fence. Jim Rinehard without mounding, do we have to
buffer more with trees? Tim said the standard is a 6 foot wall or fence. This
can be done with trees also. Tim said the privacy fence would meet the
requirement. Cherry Linder asked Greg Amend if they could do a split rail fence
and trees. Greg Amend said he likes the split rail fence and double trees.
There was more discussion on buffering for the homes from the lights near the
driveway. Tim said he encourages using the main driveway most of the time but
using the secondary driveway only occasionally. Doug Miller said we need to
make sure that there is a consensus for the split rail fence because some of the
people who were here earlier think there is going to be a privacy fence. Cherry
Linder we should make sure that some of the lots have 100% buffering from head
lights and the maintenance building. Tim said we should make sure they provide
100% buffering in those areas.
Pat Cain asked Stacy
Anderson, 5853 Stone Trace Drive, Lot 30, what she thinks of privacy fencing.
She doesn’t want people parking on her street and hopping over the fence to go
to the game. She said she did not want visitors to the fields coming over into
her yard. She said the split rail is too low.
Cherry Linder said the
board can make a condition that certain lots have denser or 100% buffering which
would block the lights of cars coming and going. There was discussion on
locations on the site where there should be 100% screening.
Doug Miller said that the
survey that went out included the fence issue. Jenny said it was covered in the
survey. Doug said he wants an indication from the board on their impression of
each condition. Doug went over each condition (see attached) as follows:
1.
Okay
2.
Okay
3. Okay
4. Okay
5.
Concerning ingress/egress – Tim said the DTFR likes 2 driveways and Greg
Amend said that is better for their insurance. Pat Cain said they need to put
in good quality gates which would block vehicle access.
6.
Concerning fences – Pat Cain said the fence would only be to the east
side and north side boundary. Pat Cain said in condition 6 the name should be
changed to ____________ fence. Doug Miller said a split rail could be put on
the property line with bushes to buffer on CHCA property. Doug said if we leave
the type of fence blank we can decide on that later.
7.
Mr. Kent Hall, 5901 Stone Trace Drive, doesn’t like the lights shining on
his property from the cars coming into the driveway, and the privacy fence would
work to make 100% buffering. Cherry Linder said Lots 24,25,26,51,52,53, 54
would need 100% screening. Tim said if the grade there happens to fall down,
100% screening may not be needed. Per Jim Rinehart it is at the staff’s
discretion.
8.
Okay
9.
Okay
10.
Okay
11. Tim Hershner said they
would submit a lighting plan. This is a standard
Kings High School
has this type of lights and this is plan is about the same
height. Jim
Rinehart said he likes the 50 foot tall lights. He is concerned
about the 70 foot
height. Cherry was concerned about the placement of the
lights. Doug said
they will submit a lighting plan. Doug asked them how
many varsity games
they will have? Mr. Amend said there would be about
10 games with lights
because early in the season they don’t need lights.
12. Public address system
will not exceed ________ decibels.
13.
Doug said we should specifically say, no football games, no baseball
games.
They shall allow
soccer practice and games, La Crosse practice and games,
field hockey
practice, baseball practice, football practice, cross country
practice, for the
CHCA students and visiting teams. There will be no use of
the fields on
Sunday. The maintenance facility hours shall be 6:00 AM to
6:00 PM with
occasional overtime.
Doug said it is not
that they won’t let the neighbors use it, but that they can’t
let the neighbors
use it due to insurance problems.
14.
Okay
15.
Okay
Attorney Doug Miller will have Resolution 2002-601, of conditions at the next
Board of Zoning Appeals Meeting, 11/14/02, to be reviewed and voted upon by this
board.
Cherry
Linder made a
motion to approve this case #2002-601 contingent on the conditions that
we have stated. Pat Cain seconded the motion and the vote was
as follows:
Roll Call
Pat
Cain - yes
Joe Thompson
- yes
Cherry Linder
- yes
Jim Rinehart
- no
The motion was approved.
ADJOURNMENT
Motion by Pat Cain to adjourn at 11:15 PM. The motion was
seconded by Joe Thompson.
Roll Call
Pat Cain
- yes Joe Thompson - yes
Cherry Linder - yes
Jim Rinehart - yes
The motion to adjourn was
approved.
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